post-baitcon feedback

[quietann.livejournal.com]

My personal issues with baitcon are in my personal journal; however, there are a few things that IMHO need to change:

• Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat. There are a lot of people involved who nominally keep kosher, and it's discomfiting to know that one's ice cream might have been prepared using the same equipment as, say, the chicken liver ice cream. (for that matter, I'd just ban meat-containing flavors entirely, but that's not my decision to make.)
  
• More whole wheat (not just wheat, whole wheat) bread, less white bread. We ran out of whole wheat by lunch on Saturday. (this suggestion passed on from Gregorian, who was amazingly polite about it, but still really would have preferred whole wheat bread for his peanut butter sandwich...)
  
• More tarpage for shade protection (may not be an issue if baitcon isn't at Mink Hollow anymore, but...)
  
• Re-reinforcement of the "modest dress" (ahem) requirement in and around the main area. There was one person in particular who seriously violated this. (insert serious snarkage here; I am trying to be polite.) Dancing naked in the rain, as usual, should be granted leniency.
  

Comments

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Though I had a fantabulous time (and didn't even get nekkid in the rain, so I know you couldn't be snarking about me!), I would add that there was entirely too much meat and carbs. There were a few apples and some lycee fruit, which was very welcome.

My colon will need some TLC, but it was worth it. ;-D

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat. There are a lot of people involved who nominally keep kosher, and it's discomfiting to know that one's ice cream might have been prepared using the same equipment as, say, the chicken liver ice cream. (for that matter, I'd just ban meat-containing flavors entirely, but that's not my decision to make.)

How is this different from knowing that your ice cream may have been prepared with the same equipment that made the breakfast sausages or the ground beef? Which, I would wager money on, happened -- probably a lot.

If having the equipment washed off and disinfected between uses isn't enough to satisfy 'nominal' kashrut, you're probably not going find much if any of the food edible. Baitcon's kitchen isn't likely to get a heckscher anytime soon.

[deguspice.livejournal.com]

I had a great time at Baitcon and the organizers did a great job. But this one area where things could be improved.

Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat.

For several years, I've been trying to encourage a friend who keeps kosher and loves ice cream to come to Baitcon. In last night's email exchange I mentioned the meat ice creams, and their reply was "going to Baitcon and not being able to have ice cream would be kind of pathetic."

Vegetarians might also be a bit uncomfortable about having their non-meat ice cream served with a scoop (or made in a container) that was also used for meat ice cream.

Given how poorly the meat ice creams were rated, I don't think they would be missed. (Except for the machismo of being able to claim that they sampled one of the meat ice creams. :)

On a related issue, if the breakfast menu says "turkey sausage" will be served, when the turkey sausage runs out, please put out a sign next to the sausage that says "pork sausage". Fortunately, someone warned me that the sausages weren't turkey before I ate them.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

see Ben's reply below; he expands on the issue. I actually don't observe the milk-meat separation at all strictly, so it's not really my issue...

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Vegetarians might also be a bit uncomfortable about having their non-meat ice cream served with a scoop (or made in a container) that was also used for meat ice cream.

Perhaps they should use one of the rinsing buckets that are helpfully provided on the table next to the ice creams? :)

Sorry if this sounds snarky, but this strikes me as a non-problem. (And if it is, perhaps they should bring their own scoops.)

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Er, no offense, but no, he doesn't. I asked a question: "How is this different from knowing that your ice cream may have been prepared with the same equipment that made the breakfast sausages or the ground beef?" Ben puts in another datapoint (that a friend of his can't attend because of the meat ice creams), but that doesn't answer the question.

All of the BC ice creams are prepared with equipment that probably fail even the most casual of kosher standards. The meat ice creams only highlight the issue. If there's a need for guaranteed-kosher food at baitcon, maybe someone should volunteer to coordinate a kosher kitchen or freezing station?

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

(er, for "can't", substitute "won't", above.)

[gingicat]

I think that asking for the level of care that, say, a Chinese restaurant has for ensuring that dishes are clean before use is not a problem. People are very good about washing and disinfecting things at Baitcon (I wasn't able to attend this year due to pregnancy, but I try to take at least one turn at dishwashing every time I'm able to come).

The issue is things that can't be washed easily, or can't be washed right away. You mention rinsing the scoops below; how many times has that same water been used? The water has meat in it after the very first rinse and therefore isn't useful for rinsing the scoop thereafter.

Keeping the meat ice creams on a separate table would be a very simple way to ensure that the scoops used for the meat ice creams don't contaminate the other ones. Keeping the sorbets separate would help the vegans keep milk and eggs out of their sorbet. And so on.

[klingonlandlady.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, (not being a member of food kitchen staff), maintaining a kosher food supply would add a layer of difficulty to say the least. Due to the usual shortage of serving implements, many of the big spoons used to stir ice cream are also used to serve meals. (washed and properly disinfected in between of course.)

The fact that there were meat ice creams only makes the non-kosherness harder to ignore. If you ignore the silverware issue, one could pretty well avoid ingesting any actual trace elements of meat by either rinsing the scoops or bringing one's own scoop.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

modest dress --> cover what would be covered by a bathing suit acceptable on American beaches. (That is, cover one's HAIRY ass already, 'kay? There, now you know it isn't you :)

The meat-and-carbs issue is a constant issue -- though I hope that whole wheat bread isn't on your list of bad foods... There were some nice salads Friday night and Saturday day, but after that, not much.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone is asking for a kosher kitchen (though at Big Indian, there was a separate veggie food-prep area.) Maybe we're just asking that the meat ice creams be kept separate in some way, 'cause they're gross, ya know.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Hm.
If someone cares sufficiently then a rinse isn't enough, even if a soap wash would be.

In general it's pretty hard to find a non [ingredient] kosher ice cream, and I can't really remember any from before this year.

I think it wouldn't be too hard to have any few meat containing ice creams stirred /served separately, much like we had a whole table one year devoted to non-soy ice creams.

While separate creation containers is more kosher specific, having separation in general for meat ice creams would be helpful for any vegetarians, too. One vegetarian friend hadn't heard the 'proscuitto' part of the gorganzola proscuitto balsamic fig; I provided that information just before sie was about to take a bite.* And sometimes labels come off and chicken liver looks a lot like rose...

*hopefully that was a good rather than bad thing for me to do; in any case I was thanked for it...

[thespian.livejournal.com]

More tarpage for shade protection (may not be an issue if baitcon isn't at Mink Hollow anymore, but...)

Although, I would point out, as someone who got terribly burned (http://www.sleepingcat.com/images/sun1.jpg) through a tarp at another festival last year, tarps can actually be *more* dangerous than outright sun. If you don't get one that's actually got a sun protection rating, you get the *feeling* that you're being good and avoiding the sun, and the end result as above.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

:chuckle: Harder to ignore is probably a goodly amount of the problem. I "kept kosher" for a year in college, in that I didn't have milk and meat together in a meal that I knew of and I avoided pork and shellfish. Sure, I was eating in the normal dining hall and had no control over the dishes, preparation, or even whether they'd thrown lard in the cake today. But I was doing what I could to a comfort level I could manage.*

I don't think there's a request for a kosher kitchen or kosher ice cream prep. But I don't think it's only those who keep kosher who might prefer that the few ice creams containing meat be separated out and maybe handled with meatish utensils rather than the general ice cream utensils. I commented further above.

*for what it's worth, my biggest problem with the gorganzola proscuitto balsamic fig was that the fig bits were overpowering. The friend of the family I visited nearby extrapolated that it would be really cool to fill figs with goat cheese/proscuitto ice cream. YMMV

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

I think that asking for the level of care that, say, a Chinese restaurant has for ensuring that dishes are clean before use is not a problem. People are very good about washing and disinfecting things at Baitcon (I wasn't able to attend this year due to pregnancy, but I try to take at least one turn at dishwashing every time I'm able to come).

Agreed, and I believe that this is basically the status quo right now.

The issue is things that can't be washed easily, or can't be washed right away. The water has meat in it after the very first rinse and therefore isn't useful for rinsing the scoop thereafter.

Isn't useful to who? I'm not getting a good sense of scale match between the size of the group of people having problems (so far two attendees and one non-attendee due to kashrut issues, and an unknown number of hypothetical vegetarians) and the proposed solutions (seperate table for meat ice creams; banning meat ice creams) here. If it's just a handful of people, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that bringing your own scoop is a simple and effective solution. If it's more than a handful, it's time for one or more of them to step up and volunteer to handle the extra organizing that a large solution will entail.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Far better explained than I managed.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

By the later part of lunch on Sunday there was yummy avacado and a lentil/feta salad...

[gingicat]

Well, I can think of at least six people offhand (including myself and my husband, who admittedly haven't been in a while) who keep meat-milk separation in some fashion but are okay with eating Baitcon food.

I can think of at least two vegans who have attended past Baitcons but weren't at this one.

So yes, it's a small sample size, but it's the sort of thing I did automatically for people long before I kept meat-milk separation rules myself. Consider it akin to making sure the person allergic to mushrooms doesn't get anything that touches the mushrooms. There may be only one person with that allergy, but making sure zie doesn't go into anaphylactic shock is still well worth the effort. Kashrut and veganism are conscious choices, but no less mentally important to the people who practice them.

[ceo]

And sometimes (thankfully, not often) things are mislabeled, which caused one milk-allergic person an evening of gastrointestinal discomfort.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

:smile:
I suppose the question also becomes "just how many meat ice creams are we expecting?" If the answer is less than maybe 6, they'd all fit on one of the port-a-tables some people bring to keep in a large tent.

Thing is, for anyone who would prefer to not even accidentally eat meat, bringing their own scoop isn't really a solution. Scoops don't get washed off all the way and sometimes scoops don't get washed off at all between flavours.

If I can make it to next Baitcon I'd be happy to spend some time attempting to acquire a few brightly coloured scoops-for-a-meat-area should it seem necessary.

Or, honestly, it would likely be sufficient to put a band of red duct tape around the pack tubs of the few meat flavours then group them together at serving (I mean, hell, we only had two this year) and add a band of red duct tape around an associated scoop or two. Nobody who has issues with meat accidentally serves hirself any nor worries that the meat's gotten onto whatever sie is eating.

The freeze bucket and stirrer get washed/disinfected anyway.

If the forces that be [hopefully] make there be a next year's Baitcon that I can attend I'll be happy to tote some coloured duct tape and extra scoops.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Yah. If it's who I think it was, I'm glad she's feeling better and glad she liked my vegan coconut amaretto. (Now to figure out how to make it stay frozen more than a few minutes.)

[donnad.livejournal.com]

On a related issue, if the breakfast menu says "turkey sausage" will be served, when the turkey sausage runs out, please put out a sign next to the sausage that says "pork sausage". Fortunately, someone warned me that the sausages weren't turkey before I ate them.

This may be a moot point, if we end up where we are trying to be next year, Pork products are not allowed on the property.

[dragonsea]

Actually, I second the suggestion I heard that we have a dairy free table. It would benefit the lactose-intolerant/vegans among us.

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Maybe we're just asking that the meat ice creams be kept separate in some way, 'cause they're gross, ya know.

If that's what you're actually asking for, maybe it would have been better to state it that way, rather than confusing the issue by phrasing it as a kashrut problem?

And, well... it's baitcon. With 80+ flavors, everybody is going to find one or two of them repugnant. Maybe you should volunteer to research a better labelling solution?

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Meh. Since ordinarily one can assume that ice cream is lacto-ovo vegetarian* it doesn't seem way out of line to suggest more separation for that which is not.

I think I may have come up with a relatively easy labeling solution above.



*yes, I know that one can also usually assume that it's sweet and not savory nor spicy, and that there's always someone allergic to something, but for those who keep kosher and for a subset of vegetarians cross contamination is an issue.