post-baitcon feedback

[quietann.livejournal.com]

My personal issues with baitcon are in my personal journal; however, there are a few things that IMHO need to change:

• Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat. There are a lot of people involved who nominally keep kosher, and it's discomfiting to know that one's ice cream might have been prepared using the same equipment as, say, the chicken liver ice cream. (for that matter, I'd just ban meat-containing flavors entirely, but that's not my decision to make.)
  
• More whole wheat (not just wheat, whole wheat) bread, less white bread. We ran out of whole wheat by lunch on Saturday. (this suggestion passed on from Gregorian, who was amazingly polite about it, but still really would have preferred whole wheat bread for his peanut butter sandwich...)
  
• More tarpage for shade protection (may not be an issue if baitcon isn't at Mink Hollow anymore, but...)
  
• Re-reinforcement of the "modest dress" (ahem) requirement in and around the main area. There was one person in particular who seriously violated this. (insert serious snarkage here; I am trying to be polite.) Dancing naked in the rain, as usual, should be granted leniency.
  

Comments

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Though I had a fantabulous time (and didn't even get nekkid in the rain, so I know you couldn't be snarking about me!), I would add that there was entirely too much meat and carbs. There were a few apples and some lycee fruit, which was very welcome.

My colon will need some TLC, but it was worth it. ;-D

[quietann.livejournal.com]

modest dress --> cover what would be covered by a bathing suit acceptable on American beaches. (That is, cover one's HAIRY ass already, 'kay? There, now you know it isn't you :)

The meat-and-carbs issue is a constant issue -- though I hope that whole wheat bread isn't on your list of bad foods... There were some nice salads Friday night and Saturday day, but after that, not much.

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat. There are a lot of people involved who nominally keep kosher, and it's discomfiting to know that one's ice cream might have been prepared using the same equipment as, say, the chicken liver ice cream. (for that matter, I'd just ban meat-containing flavors entirely, but that's not my decision to make.)

How is this different from knowing that your ice cream may have been prepared with the same equipment that made the breakfast sausages or the ground beef? Which, I would wager money on, happened -- probably a lot.

If having the equipment washed off and disinfected between uses isn't enough to satisfy 'nominal' kashrut, you're probably not going find much if any of the food edible. Baitcon's kitchen isn't likely to get a heckscher anytime soon.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

see Ben's reply below; he expands on the issue. I actually don't observe the milk-meat separation at all strictly, so it's not really my issue...

[gingicat]

I think that asking for the level of care that, say, a Chinese restaurant has for ensuring that dishes are clean before use is not a problem. People are very good about washing and disinfecting things at Baitcon (I wasn't able to attend this year due to pregnancy, but I try to take at least one turn at dishwashing every time I'm able to come).

The issue is things that can't be washed easily, or can't be washed right away. You mention rinsing the scoops below; how many times has that same water been used? The water has meat in it after the very first rinse and therefore isn't useful for rinsing the scoop thereafter.

Keeping the meat ice creams on a separate table would be a very simple way to ensure that the scoops used for the meat ice creams don't contaminate the other ones. Keeping the sorbets separate would help the vegans keep milk and eggs out of their sorbet. And so on.

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

I'm one of the kosher people who has been almost-but-not-quite going to Baitcon for years... we always think "maybe this year!" but then it doesn't happen. Maybe next year? Anyway... I have been told by several people that keeping kosher wouldn't be a problem b/c there's a vegetarian kitchen and a meat kitchen, and we could just avoid the meat kitchen. And ice cream is generally fine as long as there isn't anything obviously non-kosher in it, and as a lifelong ice-cream freak I've really been looking forward to the chance to try some of the Baitcon flavors. I always assumed that the ice-cream equipment would be OK, because, logically, who would cook sausages in a large plastic bucket? But if the utensils really are used interchangeably, then maybe we shouldn't bother trying to go after all. :-(

[deguspice.livejournal.com]

I had a great time at Baitcon and the organizers did a great job. But this one area where things could be improved.

Separate dishes/mixing equipment/etc. for any ice cream product containing meat.

For several years, I've been trying to encourage a friend who keeps kosher and loves ice cream to come to Baitcon. In last night's email exchange I mentioned the meat ice creams, and their reply was "going to Baitcon and not being able to have ice cream would be kind of pathetic."

Vegetarians might also be a bit uncomfortable about having their non-meat ice cream served with a scoop (or made in a container) that was also used for meat ice cream.

Given how poorly the meat ice creams were rated, I don't think they would be missed. (Except for the machismo of being able to claim that they sampled one of the meat ice creams. :)

On a related issue, if the breakfast menu says "turkey sausage" will be served, when the turkey sausage runs out, please put out a sign next to the sausage that says "pork sausage". Fortunately, someone warned me that the sausages weren't turkey before I ate them.

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

Vegetarians might also be a bit uncomfortable about having their non-meat ice cream served with a scoop (or made in a container) that was also used for meat ice cream.

Perhaps they should use one of the rinsing buckets that are helpfully provided on the table next to the ice creams? :)

Sorry if this sounds snarky, but this strikes me as a non-problem. (And if it is, perhaps they should bring their own scoops.)

[donnad.livejournal.com]

On a related issue, if the breakfast menu says "turkey sausage" will be served, when the turkey sausage runs out, please put out a sign next to the sausage that says "pork sausage". Fortunately, someone warned me that the sausages weren't turkey before I ate them.

This may be a moot point, if we end up where we are trying to be next year, Pork products are not allowed on the property.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

On a related issue, if the breakfast menu says "turkey sausage" will be served, when the turkey sausage runs out, please put out a sign next to the sausage that says "pork sausage". Fortunately, someone warned me that the sausages weren't turkey before I ate them.

and a similar related issue, it would be SO useful, if when the veggie patties are served, and it's ANNOUNCED before they even hit the table that they are essentially reserved for actual veggie/vegans who cannot eat of the meat bonanza, that such a thing is respected.

they were in quite limited supply, as a result, my grrl was able to get ONE and i'm sure that most the people i saw immediately scarfing them down weren't veggies judging by the meats and fruit bats and orangutans on their plates.

#

[sunspiral.livejournal.com]

Granted that the Chopped Liver ice cream didn't register as a Favorite Flavor, but at least 3/4 of the batch was consumed. This means that a reasonable number of people chose to try a culinary experience that many of them previously wouldn't even have imagined. Not sure how much of infinitehotel's fascinating Gorgonzola Prosciutto Fig ice cream was consumed, but it certainly expanded a lot of people's ideas of the possible as well. For the record, I didn't like it, but I would never presume to say that it wouldn't be missed if banned. And banned because it offends someone's religious beliefs? And they're going to pretend that anything coming out of a Baitcon kitchen is kosher?

I didn't create that flavor to be a gross-out or a practical joke, or even primarily for the shock value of it, I created it to prove that it works. And for the record, I thought it was yummy, and just what I wanted it to be. It was thoroughly worked out, tested and documented before Baitcon, just like I do with any other flavor. Experimenting with flavor possibilities is one of the things that the Baitcon ice cream making has always encouraged, and hopefully always will.

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

At least this issue came up now, so it can be discussed and evaluated...

[klingonlandlady.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, (not being a member of food kitchen staff), maintaining a kosher food supply would add a layer of difficulty to say the least. Due to the usual shortage of serving implements, many of the big spoons used to stir ice cream are also used to serve meals. (washed and properly disinfected in between of course.)

The fact that there were meat ice creams only makes the non-kosherness harder to ignore. If you ignore the silverware issue, one could pretty well avoid ingesting any actual trace elements of meat by either rinsing the scoops or bringing one's own scoop.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone is asking for a kosher kitchen (though at Big Indian, there was a separate veggie food-prep area.) Maybe we're just asking that the meat ice creams be kept separate in some way, 'cause they're gross, ya know.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

More tarpage for shade protection (may not be an issue if baitcon isn't at Mink Hollow anymore, but...)

Although, I would point out, as someone who got terribly burned (http://www.sleepingcat.com/images/sun1.jpg) through a tarp at another festival last year, tarps can actually be *more* dangerous than outright sun. If you don't get one that's actually got a sun protection rating, you get the *feeling* that you're being good and avoiding the sun, and the end result as above.

[dragonsea]

Actually, I second the suggestion I heard that we have a dairy free table. It would benefit the lactose-intolerant/vegans among us.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

Re-reinforcement of the "modest dress" (ahem) requirement in and around the main area. There was one person in particular who seriously violated this. (insert serious snarkage here; I am trying to be polite.)

Fwiw, I've been mentally trying to wrap my head around this since I first felt blinded by them. And the thing is, I strongly suspect the issue is on my end and not on theirs. It's not the amount of dressed that they were (given that I later saw others in just a thong and that was ok); it's not that the clothing itself was poorly designed (they weren't the only one); it's not that they aren't my version of attractive (they weren't alone in that either). It was, for me, that they were wearing not much more than a thong, badly created, and were not my version of attractive all interacting together in a way that offended my sensibilities. Honestly, that puts the blame for the squick pretty squarly in my lap.

Yes, I could wish they had better fashion sense and were more physically fit and prettier; however, I can't fix those things. And they shouldn't have to if they don't feel like it. Meanwhile, I can fix my being judgemental and intolerant, and so that's the part of the equation I'm trying to work on for me.

In the meantime, thank you for stating that you feel some people lack the good sense and sound judgement god gave a sardine. I'd been feeling much the same way since Saturday. -H...

[totient]

OK, we're all referring to the guy with the small wisp of white T-shirt material around his waist on Sunday, right? I read that as "I would really much rather be naked, but I can't, so I will wear this token piece of fabric". That message assembled from minimal coverage, no care taken that coverage was maintained, and the complete lack of any distinguishing aspect of the piece of fabric in question. The same guy the previous day in a thong was showing more but being less offensive in that the article of clothing he was wearing was actually designed as an article of clothing.

Either nudity is OK with the hosts, or it's not. If it's not, don't try to push their boundaries; they're your hosts, and it's disrespectful.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

o first item covered enough

o for the second item, it'd WOULD be nice to have more richer grained breads, but that costs more money, and honestly, i try to not touch those anyway.

o "shade protection" - how much more? there was tons of covered space. much more space than my living room in fact. plus, there was the house, friendly nearby tents, the nice shaded woods, even the truck. there really isn't much of a way to add more tarps to the house - it's a tricky thing already, the tarp is damn big. need more? shade structures cost money, the concom is short enough on that. perhaps donate one. (why do we need to protect again shade? ;P)

o i had no problem with any of the dress i saw. there was a huge range of clothes and styles. aside from a minor (accidental) instance, nobody was especially notable in regards to showing their bounty.

#

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

You try not to touch bread at all or.... ?

You're right -- wonder bread etc is the cheapest, and concom's already spending a lot on providing meal food; the bread seems to be more for snacks and such. At some point the balance needs to happen -- I did see spinach and whole grain tortillas, for example. A few loaves of nice(er) bread isn't so expensive; perhaps those for whom it's important can consider bringing some?

Shade -- Again, I suppose more people could set up their own shady places, but there's shade by the stream and there's shade further in the woods . .. and there's this huge table with shade. Some people in the past have set up their own tarps around the clearing.

Really, with the probable change in site it doesn't matter

And . . . I've never quite known what the modest dress listings were. I myself am not comfortable up in 'family space' not being street legal. Hence the bikini top and the lack of modeling of my rather see through wrap. The only time I've seen full nudity or even bare female bosom up by the house has been during the mudfights in the rain last time.

But I'm not even sure that that is outre; JB seemed to be telling me that the see through top would have been fine.

:laugh: Re the (accidental) instance: I know exactly what you wear under your kilt; did more folks also have utilikilt mishaps? (I had to keep being quite careful that my orange skirt stayed tied on...)

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

* Re-reinforcement of the "modest dress" (ahem) requirement in and around the main area. There was one person in particular who seriously violated this. (insert serious snarkage here; I am trying to be polite.) Dancing naked in the rain, as usual, should be granted leniency.

Okay, what is the "modest dress" requirement?
My assumption is "nothing that would get you arrested", though I think I might still have been uncomfortable in a thong & pasties :-/

My instinct has been to leave full nudity to rain showers*, and I've tended to feel that I'm on the outside edge of modest, anyway (most other folks are wearing rather more than a bikini top or small halter on top). But other than a feeling of "this is general public space" I've never heard anything specific.


As to aesthetics, though (hairy comment)... you can always turn your eye to those who appeal.

* I'd always heard of the stream as clothing optional, which to me implied that the house wasn't.**

** Not that I participated in last time's mudfight - it was too danged *cold* out there! Hell, come to think of it, I think I've only once been nude down at the stream and I was hiding behind the shower.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

As to aesthetics, though (hairy comment)... you can always turn your eye to those who appeal

indeed. it's rarely the fault of the person being looked at. don't look, don't tell. if it REALLY offends one, talk to the person in question about perhaps tacking on a bit of duct tape or something.

#

[istemi.livejournal.com]

It's too bad the meat ice creams had a negative impact on people.

It would have been more effective to address the issue on-site. I think concomm would have been open to constructive suggestions, like "I have a concern about X and here's what I'm willing to do to help solve it". Phil commented above that he's willing to try anything with a good effort-to-results ratio.

Too late now, and that's sad.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I doubt that it really made a huge amount of difference in the moment. I think it's worth considering for the future.

somewhat snarky.

[marmota.livejournal.com]

I did my own share of grumbling about how the ice cream flavors were (dis)arranged, however in hindsight the fact that there were an insane number of flavors this year (80-ish?), freezer malfunctions meaning the well-intended timing of production and deployment was screwed, and that I personally heard at least three people use the words 'sorbet' and 'sherbet' interchangeably, I really don't see how any of the suggested improvements could have solved significantly more problems than they would have created.

That said, amidst all this grumbling, I haven't seen anyone offering to volunteer to implement their suggestions, just that *handwave*handwave* it should happen next time the way they think it should.

Re: somewhat snarky.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Plbbt.
I've offered concepts as to how, and I've said that if I'm at the next Baitcon I'd be happy to bring coloured scoops / bring coloured duct tape / etc.

If there seems to be a need for tray tables I might be able to find some.

Right now the discussion is whether or not there's really even a need.

People need to brainstorm possibilities before anything else. Throwing out ideas, as it were.

And honestly I don't personally care much anyway - I'm completely omnivorous. But I know that there are people for whom it's a far bigger deal, and working on finding a relatively easy solution is hence of interest.

Would colour codes for Vegan / Dairy / Meat / Spicy create a lot of problems? It shouldn't be too difficult to bring some duct tape etc.

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for bringing up issue #1! It's very useful to know what one should expect...

[jbsegal.livejournal.com]

Had the cord been long enough to reach the shed (or it been cordless), I'd've been doing the calling, myself...

[mycroft.livejournal.com]

I'm going to make a coherent set of recommendations:

1) I don't think it's possible to prevent cross-contamination in any general sense. Yes, we could possibly "solve" the milk-meat "issue," but it's actually the least important cross-contamination issue. It does nothing to deal with peanut, mango, blueberry, or other allergies. In practice, completely isolating all of the possible allergens would require considerably more work (I'm guessing 2-3 times as much) due to additional cleaning and sanitizing of tools, scoops, etc. Furthermore, it would make the whole serving process take much longer.

That said, I'm all for people labeling their particular concoctions with a full ingredient list. And people with food issues should READ it -- e.g. there's no excuse for not knowing there is prosciutto in an ice cream, since it's clearly in the name of the ice cream. If there's no label, don't eat it. In fact, if you're really frightened by the whole thing, don't eat any of it. There's no rule that you have to!

But most importantly, please do not presume to speak for other people. If it's not personally an issue for you, then let people for whom it is an issue speak up. You do not need to be a "voice of reason" -- that way lies ridiculous things like schools banning Halloween decor because "it might offend witches."

2) Again, please do not presume to speak for other people. By presenting it this way, you are making it sound like a big issue, which I seriously doubt it was for Gregorian. A polite suggestion would have been better placed. Even better, an offer to go get some more whole wheat bread would have been much better placed. It's hard to plan for everything.

3) Uh, you're camping. Bring your own. Seriously. Even better, offer something constructive, like, "Next time I'll bring a canopy to share with other people."

4) In 12 years (not all of which I've attended), this is the first I've ever heard of such a thing. Furthermore, I know for a fact that at both of the previous two Baitcons, and even this one, a number of other people were nude at various points near the house. In fact, one person (female) has been known to run around and play with little kids while butt naked. I've never heard a complaint about this before. This leads me to believe that this is an issue with a specific person, that is being exaggerated into a general rule. It seems to me (especially given the outright applause during the rain) that people are not only generally comfortable with the current level of nudity, but actually like it. If you don't, then perhaps you should try not to look.

[fixx.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to see, "Dancing naked in the rain, as usual, should be granted leniency."

While I have no problem watching others dance truly naken in the rain, I did not feel comfortable doing so myself, deciding to keep my shorts on.

As I was the first person to drag out the Dr Bronner's during the rainstorm, I was a little uncomfortable for what reactions I might get, fearing some would feel it inappropriate somehow. All I know is if I'm given the choice between watching another person wash their armpits in the rain or not do so and later smelling them, I'll gladly take the former.

I honestly could not tell if the looks I received where disdain or envy. I felt taking advantage of nature delivering that much water up to the house should be appreciated, but not at the expense of making anyone else uncomfortable.

The other rain-dancers were all too happy to borrow my Dr. Bronners having not foreseen the storm and not wishing to run back to their tents. I had mine with me only because I'd already packed a bag to go down with me to the creek.